Loss of precision with higher sens?

[Mustakrakish]

I'm considering switching from my current ~35cm/360 to something like 15-20cm/360. However, the general consensus seems to be that such high sensitivity leads to loss of precision. It makes sense in theory, since it requires much subtler hand movements to make the same adjustments on the screen, thus increasing chance of error.

So I guess this question is directed towards the people here using these higher sensitivities: Do you guys feel like you're sacrificing accuracy for the added speed?

Higher sens seems to be more popular in aim training games such as Aim Hero, Aimtastic, Kovaak's etc. I'm guessing it's due to the emphasis on speed and less so on precision, since most of the challenges seem to provide relatively large targets to shoot. So I'm more interested in what it's like in actual games. Do you guys find it difficult to click heads, especially at longer distances, or is "higher sens = less accuracy" just a meme in your opinion?

[ajaxxo]

First of all, why don't you just try and play with it and find out yourself?

I have over 3000 hours of cs go alone, I have played with everything (and I mean over 100 of hours with different senses) with 60cm / 360 - 40cm / 360 and I'm now playing with 21cm / 360 just because I play a lot more different games than just cs go so I feel like having a higher sens helps me out like in pubg, battlefield v and so on. 

I can still play cs go fine with 1.2 ingame sens and 1600 dpi, I actually don't feel I aim worse and I did with 1.6 ingame sens and 400 dpi (which is what I used for 1000 of hours). I'll probably trigger a lot of people saying this, but CS GO players have such a "fake" aim, the maps are too linearly and easy to learn so you can get away with low sensitivity by simply preaim spots and you hardly ever need to aim in the y-axis (you usually always have the crosshair on head height). Do this on other games like quake, pubg, battlefield or other games and I would suck so much with a slow sens like that. 

I can easily turn 180 deg instant with a  slow sens, but I would need to "reset" my mouse a lot more when doing so, I aim best when my mouse is at a certan position on the mousepad, higher sens allows me to keep the mouse at that position of the mouse pad more basically. 

[Mustakrakish]

@ajaxxo I've definitely tried playing with the sens, and as one would expect it felt incredibly weird. It would take me several days, perhaps even longer to get fully used to it. So I'm just wondering if the time investment is even worth it.

I wouldn't call the aim in CSGO "fake", but I get your point. It requires a lot fewer quick turns and as you pointed out, there is very little vertical movement, so it relies a lot more on micro-adjustments and spray control. But even outside of CSGO, in a faster-paced game like Overwatch for example, you still see most pros sticking to sensitivities lower than 30cm/360. There must be some reason behind this trend, right?

[ajaxxo]

Yeah, I just don't take "pro" players opinions too serious because most of them are biased towards settings they used when they start gaming, like 400dpi was what mouse had when cs 1.6 was popular people still use 1024 resolution in cs go in 2018 is just pure placebo. 

I'm not saying my settings are perfect, but don't let others settings hold you back. 

One thing I have learned through out my "FPS" gaming is that if a setting doesn't feel right, it probably isn't. Play with something that you feel is natural and fits right into your style. If you play with something that doesn't suite your playstyle long enough you will get used to it, but it doesn't mean you get better with it. 

I have been global elite in cs go since early 2014, and I can easily solo queue to the rank if I lose it (I usually lose it due to inactivity) and I won several Faceit tournaments, including a Faceit qualifier that made us play against Fnatic and other pro teams, source: https://www.hltv.org/news/12253/faceit-march-list-completed I played in SimRai. 

And I'm easily Grandmaster in pubg with around 4.0K/D even though I really play for fun and do yolo stuff alot, and I play Squad competitive (squad is a game) and we are considered second best team, so my sens does work for me atleast.

[Mustakrakish]

How long did it take you to adjust to the faster sens? You mentioned going by "what feels right", but I can't imagine that practically doubling your sensitivity would feel right at all, at least not at first.

I'm not afraid of just trying it and seeing how it goes, but I don't know how to tell whether I'm still in the adjustment period or if the 20cm/360 sensitivity simply isn't right for me. It's kind of a neurotic issue, but that's just how my brain works. This type of constant self doubt makes it difficult to adjust to any kind of change.

[ajaxxo]

10-30 minutes maybe
Increasing the dpi of your mouse might help you, since it makes you learn to controll the mouse with small movements in windows and other places

Edited November 24, 2018 by ajaxxo

[Drimzi]

I agree with ajaxxo, there is no point making the sensitivity so low that it inhibits your ability to play any game other than CSGO. Use something that you feel can accomplish absolutely anything in every game, and learn to use it.

I'm assuming you have KovaaK's FPS Aim Trainer? Use that to help become accustom to a new sensitivity. Try target acquisition easy, 1wall6targets small, tile frenzy standard, camera frenzy, air, adjust to track, cata ic long strafes thin, thin aiming long, ascended tracking v2, target switching 360.

[cchhqq]

24 分钟前, Drimzi说:

I agree with ajaxxo, there is no point making the sensitivity so low that it inhibits your ability to play any game other than CSGO. Use something that you feel can accomplish absolutely anything in every game, and learn to use it.

I'm assuming you have KovaaK's FPS Aim Trainer? Use that to help become accustom to a new sensitivity. Try target acquisition easy, 1wall6targets small, tile frenzy standard, camera frenzy, air, adjust to track, cata ic long strafes thin, thin aiming long, ascended tracking v2, target switching 360.

So what sens should be a good start point if i wanna try a higher sens? like 30cm or 20cm? 

[Drimzi]

6 hours ago, cchhqq said:

So what sens should be a good start point if i wanna try a higher sens? like 30cm or 20cm? 

Sensitivity can't be judged by cm/360 alone. How sensitive it feels depends on the focal length. Monitor size and field of view will drastically affect the cm/360 result.

I like to measure how sensitive the mouse is by using this approach (Control-Display Gain).

Here is a calc I whipped up to see how sensitive the mouse is.

Haven't put much thought into what is exactly low and high sens, but maybe a value of 0-3 would be low, 3-6 medium, 6+ high.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Drimzi

[ajaxxo]

27 inch monitor 1440p, I play with 1.2 ingame sens in cs go @ 1600 dpi that leads me to 6.58 CD with your equations @Drimzi Sounds about right that 6+ is high
 

[Mustakrakish]

@Drimzi A bit unrelated, but what conversion method would you recommend to use between different games/zooms? I see people confidently recommending 0% monitor distance, but I don't quite understand the theory behind it, and personally it feels a tad slow, especially when scoping in.

[Drimzi]

2 hours ago, Mustakrakish said:

@Drimzi A bit unrelated, but what conversion method would you recommend to use between different games/zooms? I see people confidently recommending 0% monitor distance, but I don't quite understand the theory behind it, and personally it feels a tad slow, especially when scoping in.

0% MDH/MDV in the m-s calculator is the correct conversion. That will maintain the same device sensitivity.

The one thing that changes when you scope in is the focal length, which results in a different quantity of degrees being visible within the window that you are viewing the game world through (the monitor). If you scope in, the projection will scale by a certain factor (defined by the fov). The sensitivity will feel incredibly fast if it isn't modified at all (you keep the same cm/360). You simply undo the scaling for the game sensitivity, which is what 0% monitor distance match does. The device sensitivity is now identical to what it was before scoping. The image is different though, the curvature and scale is different, and that is why it will feel different regardless. Your physical input will change proportionately with the change in image.

Amplifying the sensitivity can make it feel a bit better, but at the end of the day it is all preference. The other options in the m-s calculator are different frameworks for amplifying the sensitivity, if you want to scale the sensitivity by some framework instead of just setting a random value.

 

 

Since my calc above is based on focal length, you will get the same Control-Display Gain value no matter what FOV it is, if your sensitivity value was converted using 0%. This is why it's a more intuitive measurement for sensitivity, as it doesn't change, while cm/360 does. I wouldn't recommend ever copying someone's cm/360, as you at least have to have the exact same screen size and fov.

For example, my Control-Display Gain is 5. In CSGO, it is 25.5 cm/360. In Overwatch, it is 27.1 cm/360. In the calculator, if you change all the variables to reflect these two games, both will result in 5. If I switched to a 15" laptop, the cm/360 in CSGO would change to 15.6 cm/360, which sounds a lot faster, but it would still be CD-Gain of 5. That fov, within a 15" window, is equivalent to a much, much higher fov on the 24.5" desktop. It is the same as having 73.74/106.26 degrees within the 15" portion of the 24.5" screen, with the whole screen totaling 101.55/130.67 degrees.

 

Some nice visualisations for fov, focal length, and sensitivity.

Graphical FOV Converter (Focal Length visualiser)

In-depth information on sensitivity in a 3D environment

The result of scaling the sensitivity using 0% MDH/MDV. Your input will directly reflect the change in image.

 

Edited November 25, 2018 by Drimzi

[ajaxxo]

@Mustakrakish Btw, Hiko (cs go player) is using 2.05 ingame sens and 800 dpi on a 1024 resolution, that's even higher than me (atleast in control display wise) and he is doing pretty good in cs go.

[Drimzi]

Use native resolutions. Low game resolutions stretched to fullscreen is only going to affect cursor speed in game.

[ajaxxo]

I do use native, but I was refering to Hiko's settings

 

[Drimzi]

2 hours ago, ajaxxo said:

I do use native, but I was refering to Hiko's settings

I meant when checking other people's settings. His 3d control-display gain value is 5.

[ajaxxo]

7 minutes ago, Drimzi said:

I meant when checking other people's settings. His 3d control-display gain value is 5.

I just used the monitor distance 0% converter on this site from 1024 resolution to my native resolution 2560 and it comes out higher than mine

[Drimzi]

Just use calc above. The only time you need to convert their sens using 0% to another game is if the game in question uses fov dependent sensitivity. My calc is not taking fov dependent games into account. The calc needs native values because it is measuring the physical dimensions of a pixel. Non native resolutions just to check 2d control display gain if they are stretching low resolution to fullscreen.

 

Here's how you would check a pro's setup:

Hiko uses 2.05 sens, 800 cpi, 6/11, and has a 24.5" 1920x1080 monitor (ZOWIE by BenQ XL2540)

Plug in the values:

8.9 CD Gain for 2D

5 CD Gain for 3D

25.3 cm/360

 

[ajaxxo]

I'm not trying to argue and say you're wrong, but you calculate depending on the vertical fov in the focal lenght? That's why you get no different result with 1024 vs 2560. 
When you play cs go streched resolution the X axis sensitivity is faster than the Y-axis, they are no longer 1-1 ratio, when I check in the mouse sensitivity caluclator I were using the horisontal fov. In my opinion it's more important to have the horisontal sens true instead of the vertical sens, but correct me if I'm wrong.

[MuntyYy]

3 hours ago, ajaxxo said:

When you play cs go streched resolution the X axis sensitivity is faster than the Y-axis

That's false. Sensitivity is unchanged, only the pixels "stretch" since the FOV remains the same. It "feels" faster cuz it makes everything look wider.

Edited November 26, 2018 by MuntyYy

[MuntyYy]

I don't know how true it is, but some claim that not playing in your native res, will cause input lag as the image needs to be re-rendered in a different res/ aspect ratio then that of your desktop.

[potato psoas]

1 hour ago, MuntyYy said:

That's false. Sensitivity is unchanged, only the pixels "stretch" since the FOV remains the same. It "feels" faster cuz it makes everything look wider.

Nah he's right. When you stretch the horizontal axis the cm/360 remains the same even though the horizontal FOV has been affected, so it is perceived to be faster than than the vertical axis, or I should say the vertical is perceived to be slower, since we usually match the horizontal not the vertical. So as ajaxxo said, the perceived sensitivity isn't 1:1 anymore.

Though it doesn't really make much of a difference for CS:GO players since they never have to aim vertically. It might even help them turn more straight. But there's honestly no reason to stretch the game and make your game look stupid when you can just adjust your vertical sensitivity multiplier.

I personally wouldn't stray from 1:1 because it confuses your brain and makes converting sensitivity a headache. If anything, I think you should have a faster vertical sensitivity since it is harder to move your mouse faster vertically than horizontally.

On 25/11/2018 at 06:38, Drimzi said:

Monitor size and field of view will drastically affect the cm/360 result.

Field of view may affect the perceived sensitivity, given that you are using the same setup, but monitor size doesn't exactly affect the perceived sensitivity. If we adjust our sitting distance so that the perceived monitor size is exactly the same then it is perfectly acceptable to use the same cm/360:

But I guess the question is what if the sitting distance doesn't change?

Since the FOV for each setup will be the same, the result is that the "perceived zoom" will change. Monitor x appears zoomed out and monitor y appears zoomed in in comparison (not considering distortion). Yet they use the exact same cm/360... so does that mean the perceived sensitivity will change?

It's my opinion that the perceived sensitivity still won't change even if the monitor size is different, because the center of the monitor will always be the center of the monitor. The only thing that has changed is the zoom and the distortion for angles greater than 0%.

If perceived sensitivity were to change then moving your head back and forth would make a huge difference in muscle memory. But it doesn't. All that happens is the "perceived zoom" changes. You can test this out in Quake Live. Just turn on zoom scaling, and when you ADS, move your head back and forth as the image size changes. It will be like a dolly zoom, and your muscle memory will feel no different.

[MuntyYy]

14 minutes ago, potato psoas said:

When you stretch the horizontal axis the cm/360 remains the same even though the horizontal FOV has been affected

The FOV is still 90 (4:3) isn't it ? Is just stretched to cover up your aspect ratio.

Edited November 26, 2018 by MuntyYy

[Aseri]

Currently I'm using 450 dpi 0% monitor matching in Overwatch (~11.37) and then I'll convert 360 distance into any game so third person too slow. Obviously I try to match the same fov everywhere for hipfire. At 103 horizontal fov this gives you around 27cm/360. 500 dpi for example gives around 24cm.

Edited November 26, 2018 by Aseri

[ajaxxo]

3 hours ago, MuntyYy said:

The FOV is still 90 (4:3) isn't it ? Is just stretched to cover up your aspect ratio.

The FOV isn't 90 in cs go when you play 16:9 res, it's 106 you can easily see you get lower FOV when you switch to 4:3. 
But you're right about the 360/cm sens in cs go doesn't get affected by FOV, but I don't agree that the "precieved sens" is the same when you strech. Everything gets wider yes, but isn't that almost the same as when you scope with a gun, except it only affects the horisontal movement since you only "zoom" the horisontal axis?

So horistonal axis is zoomed in with the same cm/360 which leads to higher precieved sens?