Conversion of sensitivity from 2D to 3D windows

[Vaccaria]

Hello everyone. I want to share my findings and observations after a long study and testing. I will not try to transfer everything from my head to the text - it is corny it is difficult. But I can try to answer the questions you may have.

My learning path began with a professional overwatch player "EFFECT". Who trained a lot and already had a set of settings in osu (2D) and overwatch (3D). It is not known where he got the settings, but it is known that he changed them and looked for similarities, most likely empirically. Even I managed to easily transfer from osu to hipfire overwatch. It remained to figure out how to transfer to ADS and Scope. He just needed to train and slowly achieve accuracy.

Recently I read the threads on the forum and was surprised that I am the same person as others, who was looking for an answer, what to choose when converting and what numbers to write. People who understand how formulas work, which is the most appropriate, say 0% or 100% (start with these)

You cannot aim without eyes. You shoot with your eyes, the eyes transmit information to the brain, the brain decides to move the mouse - to press the button. You need to train the motor skills of the hands, eyes, body, etc. But when you play games, at first you adapt, the discomfort is removed. After that, you already find yourself on an empty field, because the adaptation stage will pass, and you need to create something that will develop you.

There are several rules that I will highlight at once. In mathematics, there are no wrong numbers. The calculator gives the correct values anyway. These numbers in the answers are simply at odds with your habits.

1. You always need to create settings for yourself: sensitivity, FoV, hand position, type of mouse grip, etc.
2. There is no magic pill that will help you from 2D to become effective in 3D.
3. Hipfire is no different from ADS, Scope, etc. These are the same numbers, the same movements in the game. They also need to be trained separately as Hipfire. To train them, you need to get to know them.

The topic is extensive and I might miss something. But the first rules that come to mind are enough.

When I use the standard conversion scheme of 0% or 100%. My cursor will feel slow in 2D and fast in game. But in the game there is a displacement along the sphere, and in 2d along the plane. How to train such different movements? 

I went further, and started increasing the %MDV to FoV, thereby starting to decrease the monitor in the monitor (if I can put it that way) https://www.mouse-sensitivity.com/?share=6bbebf26c14ce140e9782268b252c306

Having achieved some similarities in the movements and range of work of the eyes, brain, hand. I understood what had happened. Having a different focal length from the monitor to the eyes. The eyes will work in different ways. I play in osu and track each note in different positions on the monitor with my eyes, my eyes learn to move quickly and focus on a specific point on the monitor.

Next stage
What grip to use and what part of the hand to use when moving. 
I will not disassemble other types of grips, as having a 20-21 cm long and 10-11 cm wide palm, I am not able to use the correct palm grip and claw grip. I began to study. What are the types of mouse grip, there is a lot of information, but in short, AS IT IS COMFORTABLE FOR YOU AND KEEP.
This approach did not suit me. And I began to disassemble in detail the grip of the fingertip / fingers. After studying and testing, I decided to use a similar grip like that of a professional player.
Now, having knowledge, you need to apply them. I have a training ground and this is Osu!
It can train hand / finger motor skills, eyes, finger grip.

Trying to put it all together!

Eyes move and focus on different positions on the monitor. 

Finger movements are synchronized with your eyes, then where you want to move the cursor. Fingers range of motion appears в 2D, now you need to transfer this range to 3d. Here AimHero enters the ring with its convenient field size.

The principle is the same, now the eyes are being trained in the 3D sphere, more precisely, it is the same 2D monitor, but the sensations from the movements are now 3D. The eyes also move to the same positions on the monitor as in osu. But the effective distance is changed by the field. Now about the distance of flick and / or fingers tracking. What is the point of these trainings if the aiming style is not created?

I created mine and it is an example. Grip - fingers. The fulcrum on the table is the forearm. The wrist is not in contact with the mousepad. The elbow hangs. Flick (diagonal) - fingers. Flick (horizontal) - wrist. Flick (Vertical) - fingers. Horizontal tracking - wrist. Vertical tracking - shoulder. The rest of the movements in 360 (fine-tuning for the working range for the wrist, fingers) on the fulcrum is the forearm. Since there is no more friction between the wrist and the mousepad, movement feels uncertain - it's all a process of adaptation.

Now how does the conversion take place not to hipfire, but to ADS, Scope, or, more simply, to a smaller FoV. There are several options, but I'll show you 2.

1. Make a 1-to-1 sense of the pixel speed
2. Viewspeed-Vertical

In Osu, the value remains x1.07, in the calculator when calculating with VSV x0.76. These two values are equal. When calculating for different FoV using VSV, the visual speed will always be different, but the muscle memory will hit the target. It all works and has been tested my aim style.

The settings may be convenient, but not effective. Mouse grip can be handy, but not efficient. etc. Everything needs to be created for yourself. And not blindly copy from other pro players. Science has not entered this market, so you need to study and create for yourself.

I put everything in a heap and did not paint everything down to the pixel. Therefore, I will try to answer for those who will correctly formulate the question.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Vaccaria

[fortunate reee]

2 hours ago, Vaccaria said:

Hello everyone. I want to share my findings and observations after a long study and testing. I will not try to transfer everything from my head to the text - it is corny it is difficult. But I can try to answer the questions you may have.

My learning path began with a professional overwatch player "EFFECT". Who trained a lot and already had a set of settings in osu (2D) and overwatch (3D). It is not known where he got the settings, but it is known that he changed them and looked for similarities, most likely empirically. Even I managed to easily transfer from osu to hipfire overwatch. It remained to figure out how to transfer to ADS and Scope. He just needed to train and slowly achieve accuracy.

Recently I read the threads on the forum and was surprised that I am the same person as others, who was looking for an answer, what to choose when converting and what numbers to write. People who understand how formulas work, which is the most appropriate, say 0% or 100% (start with these)

You cannot aim without eyes. You shoot with your eyes, the eyes transmit information to the brain, the brain decides to move the mouse - to press the button. You need to train the motor skills of the hands, eyes, body, etc. But when you play games, at first you adapt, the discomfort is removed. After that, you already find yourself on an empty field, because the adaptation stage will pass, and you need to create something that will develop you.

There are several rules that I will highlight at once. In mathematics, there are no wrong numbers. The calculator gives the correct values anyway. These numbers in the answers are simply at odds with your habits.

1. You always need to create settings for yourself: sensitivity, FoV, hand position, type of mouse grip, etc.
2. There is no magic pill that will help you from 2D to become effective in 3D.
3. Hipfire is no different from ADS, Scope, etc. These are the same numbers, the same movements in the game. They also need to be trained separately as Hipfire. To train them, you need to get to know them.

The topic is extensive and I might miss something. But the first rules that come to mind are enough.

When I use the standard conversion scheme of 0% or 100%. My cursor will feel slow in 2D and fast in game. But in the game there is a displacement along the sphere, and in 2d along the plane. How to train such different movements? 

I went further, and started increasing the %MDV to FoV, thereby starting to decrease the monitor in the monitor (if I can put it that way) https://www.mouse-sensitivity.com/?share=6bbebf26c14ce140e9782268b252c306

Having achieved some similarities in the movements and range of work of the eyes, brain, hand. I understood what had happened. Having a different focal length from the monitor to the eyes. The eyes will work in different ways. I play in osu and track each note in different positions on the monitor with my eyes, my eyes learn to move quickly and focus on a specific point on the monitor.

Next stage
What grip to use and what part of the hand to use when moving. 
I will not disassemble other types of grips, as having a 20-21 cm long and 10-11 cm wide palm, I am not able to use the correct palm grip and claw grip. I began to study. What are the types of mouse grip, there is a lot of information, but in short, AS IT IS COMFORTABLE FOR YOU AND KEEP.
This approach did not suit me. And I began to disassemble in detail the grip of the fingertip / fingers. After studying and testing, I decided to use a similar grip like that of a professional player.
Now, having knowledge, you need to apply them. I have a training ground and this is Osu!
It can train hand / finger motor skills, eyes, finger grip.

Trying to put it all together!

Eyes move and focus on different positions on the monitor. 

Finger movements are synchronized with your eyes, then where you want to move the cursor. Fingers range of motion appears в 2D, now you need to transfer this range to 3d. Here AimHero enters the ring with its convenient field size.

The principle is the same, now the eyes are being trained in the 3D sphere, more precisely, it is the same 2D monitor, but the sensations from the movements are now 3D. The eyes also move to the same positions on the monitor as in osu. But the effective distance is changed by the field. Now about the distance of flick and / or fingers tracking. What is the point of these trainings if the aiming style is not created?

I created mine and it is an example. Grip - fingers. The fulcrum on the table is the forearm. The wrist is not in contact with the mousepad. The elbow hangs. Flick (diagonal) - fingers. Flick (horizontal) - wrist. Flick (Vertical) - fingers. Horizontal tracking - wrist. Vertical tracking - shoulder. The rest of the movements in 360 (fine-tuning for the working range for the wrist, fingers) on the fulcrum is the forearm. Since there is no more friction between the wrist and the mousepad, movement feels uncertain - it's all a process of adaptation.

Now how does the conversion take place not to hipfire, but to ADS, Scope, or, more simply, to a smaller FoV. There are several options, but I'll show you 2.

1. Make a 1-to-1 sense of the pixel speed
2. Viewspeed-Vertical

The settings may be convenient, but not effective. Mouse grip can be handy, but not efficient. etc. Everything needs to be created for yourself. And not blindly copy from other pro players. Science has not entered this market, so you need to study and create for yourself.

I put everythinrythig in a heap and did not paint eveng down to the pixel. Therefore, I will try to answer for those who will correctly formulate the question.

the point of having a decent grip , set up and even settings boils down to consistency its all about getting something you can reproduce most of the time  ie a natural position.

contrary to your belief there has been a ton of individual /public research on the topic as well as gaming and office ergonomics that can gets you to a pretty decent level of consistency. ( the only issue is that we are all individuals and everyone has to find a position and grip that is reproduce-able for themselves )

this picture soften used to help new players with finding a mouse that fits their preference in grip style and size 

 

didn't really specify if you were using horizontal or vertical 100%, with 0% that aspect is insignificant but with 100 that can make a sizable difference when default would be 100% mdh (which is used by many for the exact reason you stated for not liking 0% or 100%) 

 

in the end the whole setting aspect boils down to preference so if view speed or mdv 200 whatever is your preference that is great but that wont make it correct or most of the other players out there.

 

a given 3d sens also somewhat depends on  the game you play since playing a tac fps on 20cm/rev will cause you more harm than good while playing a game that heavily requires tracking like apex on anything past 50cm/rev will achieve the same level of harm on the other side of the spectrum.

 

the aspect of having to train each scope separately is debatable since most aim trainer users would tell you that aim training is more about training your had eye coordination than it is about training a specific scope ( a great aspect of using a scaled option like 100 or 0% is that once you understand 1 scope you understand them all)

 

 

if you are interested in some actual pseudo science in regard to the topic i highly suggest joining the sparky or kovaaks discord https://discord.gg/kovaak

you'll either have alot of fun or get bullied into submission   : )

 

another aspect you kind of left out would be good acceleration(povohat etc ) which is used to counter the issue you faced with slowness without having you use super fast sense 

mouse acceleration discord:  https://discord.gg/aRdvmDkd5E

Edited December 19, 2020 by fortunate reee

[Vaccaria]

 

Edited November 23, 2021 by Vaccaria
the topic is not relevant at this time

[Vaccaria]

the topic is not relevant at this time

Edited December 2, 2021 by Vaccaria
https://www.mouse-sensitivity.com/forums/topic/7903-jedis-mouse-trick/?do=findComment&comment=39522

[MacSquirrel_Jedi]

I can see that both of us was dealing with same 2D/3D issue  So at least i made a one person happy. For me it's enough

[Vaccaria]

On 11/25/2021 at 5:09 AM, MacSquirrel_Jedi said:

I can see that both of us was dealing with same 2D/3D issue  So at least i made a one person happy. For me it's enough

Yes, thanks to you, I went back to change my settings and do the calculations (bought a subscription, for Russia is quite a lot). And got my method for myself(my standards, stereotypes, etc) and I'm satisfied now, before I tried to make very similar and I succeeded. But now I realized, I need to match my shooting style to my movements. For example. W|A have the same FoV and the multiplier can be the same just because it is easier. But on A there is no damage on critical places, which means the tracking style will prevail more than the flick, on W the most like to flick, which means the multiplier should be greater than A. And so I was able to create my method, for my style of mouse possession.

I need my osu movements to be effective in shooting, which means my fingers should feel confident, I gradually reduced the multiplier and came to MDH 400% is 3.

After I multiplied 400% by 2 and got 800%, went to test W, 800 fits. Going to test A, 800 not suitable in style and tempo, I add +50 - not suitable, need more +50, I get 900 and go to test, pretty confident, but if you add another 50, there will be nuances in microflicks from the target, so 900 suitable for A. Going to test 900 for Ashe, too small range, so I start with 800, quite comfortable, try 850 - is not so confident, because you need to make more movements, 800 approach. 

No matter how I try to adapt to 100% or 0% there are always nuances in the shooting, and therefore need to be addressed globally, fingers want to make micro-corrections, and therefore need a low multiplier in the game, this method may not be suitable for palm or claw grip, but I use fingers, and therefore will create around them my way. Also I have acceleration and power curve, my settings needs are almost closed, I don't feel discomfort. When they wrote to me that you need a different 360 centimeter for each game because it's effective., I did not understand how to apply it, I did not have enough tools in my head, but now I have realized how to apply this knowledge.

Edited December 2, 2021 by Vaccaria
https://www.mouse-sensitivity.com/forums/topic/7903-jedis-mouse-trick/?do=findComment&comment=39522

[MacSquirrel_Jedi]

I have no experience with these games. It looks like lot of cooking. For me it's a wild ride. Most important that you are satisfied

Edited November 25, 2021 by MacSquirrel_Jedi

[Vaccaria]

It's been a while, maybe even a lot of time. At some point have to finish what started...

 

 

If collect the data of sensitivity settings from pro-players of any game, then get to form a groups called "the method to which this player approached" Which means 100%MDH, 100%MDV, 200%MDH, etc. 
Each method works, but I need a method that gives maximum efficiency from Osu to any 3D game. Exactly Osu, not Windows. 
The movements in Windows and Osu are different is the thesis.

I have tried all methods. I collect data, analyze, not have fun with friends or alone in games, my goal is to study.
Briefly about how I imagine the Jedi V method works.
This method was created for maximum cursor accuracy, going to 3D gives the same accuracy around the crosshair, but in Osu the patterns are not pixel-by-pixel accuracy, which is the pointer control in Windows. In Windows I use micro-correction to hit the X, etc anyway, and I do that with my fingers, but when I go into 3D, the same movements to shoot have to be used, and that is given by a titanic effort, all control goes to the fingers, and it doesn't matter what DPI you use, 200,400,800, etc. You use micro corrections at any DPI. But I can't go in from the other side, as I can't physically take the mouse in my palm, claw or whatever. Which means I only base my grip on a finger grip that involves my forearm and shoulder(600DPI).
Several of my mates use this method(because I gave it to them, LOL) they are satisfied, but not me for myself.

Conclusion: Works great, but not for Osu.

 

The other methods will not take apart, because they correlate the points on the edges of the monitor, everything is explained in the technical section of the forums.

 

What I arrived at using this site and the excel calculation tools that MacSquirrel_Jedi created.

1) Using MDH 200% for Hipfire.
https://www.mouse-sensitivity.com/?share=dfdd6a7f86c7e3beec1a24fe85cf2790
2) Use MDH 60% from Hipfire to ADS, Scope.
https://www.mouse-sensitivity.com/?share=6cfc6b711e19e9f183bddf02cca0cb06

 

 

Why 200%? - We need distance, not pixel accuracy. The distance here is in the form of centimeters.

Why 60%? - In osu there are a lot of horizontal movements that we do not pay attention to, because we do it with the wrist, in the game too the crosshair moves with the wrist and fingers, but if we take 100%, the emphasis is entirely on the wrist, but in osu works and the forearm and shoulder, at what values will not notice the difference in the transition between the shoulder, forearm, wrist, fingers in osu, and then also in 3D? The most accurate averaged points on the horizon are 60%. But accuracy is not enough, because you can also be accurate at 0%. And this is where you have to describe the so-called "feel". If you open two applications and switch between them, there will always be a feeling of slowness or speed of the pointer in osu, 3D. What I mean by that is a change in the use of the hand, if you control the wrist and fingers in osu and if you control the forearm and shoulder in 3D, you immediately sense a change in the pointer (crosshair). From this follows the so-called "confidence" in the movements of the hand and the result on the screen. In Osu we can track (this is the passage of the distance without jerks) and jerks from side to side (on confidence). The same thing needs to be repeated in 3D, but how?
We have a target, it moves from side to side, our crosshair doesn't move(no tracking) and here the target moves 50% of the screen from the crosshair, and here 0% fails, the wrist is not enough and there is no confidence in the action. If you use 100%MDH, there is confidence in the flick at the wrist.

This is a feature that needs to be disassembled.
I disassembled and got 60% MDH.

I am also aware that some pro players use -60% for Ashe and 60% on Widow. As I wrote above, this is how they represent the movement of the hand and the result on the screen. All methods work, but not all methods work effectively with Osu.
 

I can only guarantee operability between Osu and the 3D.

 

End.

[Pyroxia]

When I stop using any percentage match from windows to game I became better at both osu league of legends and FPS games. I use %0MDV for every fov. and 6/11 1600 DPI on windows. My jumps are improved hell a lot in osu. 

[Vaccaria]

On 25/05/2023 at 21:30, Pyroxia said:

When I stop using any percentage match from windows to game I became better at both osu league of legends and FPS games. I use %0MDV for every fov. and 6/11 1600 DPI on windows. My jumps are improved hell a lot in osu. 

I will allow myself to correct you. As I wrote above, I was not aiming for a result, in osu or any other 3D game. I was looking for a method to use osu as a starting point. Every day to warm up in osu, afterwards to warm up in a 3D game. This can take 1-2 hours as a warm up-workout process. Over time, the brain will get used to any setting. 
That's why I described what I want to move from osu to 3D. This is the area of "efficient" work. The resulting MDH200% is Hipfire. MDH60% - ADS, Scope.

Another example. 
Since the Jedi method is monitor accurate, I used the calculation for X'Y, but instead of Jedi H, I used MDH60%.
With FHD I got a multiplier of 1.08625 between X'Y.
I know the X'Y can be adjusted in RawAccel, but I went ahead and gave up on RawAccel. In the Razer only steps at 50, since I was using 600DPI originally, that's where I started. And the result was MDH60% - X:600; Jedi V - Y:650. ADS, Scope - MDH60%
And this method works perfectly. And now can compare them, but how? 
As I wrote, "feeling", at this point I couldn't express it in any other word or method. 

But it is possible to describe what is meant by the word "feeling. In my post above I touched on this slightly: 

On 25/05/2023 at 21:04, Vaccaria said:

We have a target, it moves from side to side, our crosshair doesn't move(no tracking) and here the target moves 50% of the screen from the crosshair, and here 0% fails, the wrist is not enough and there is no confidence in the action. If you use 100%MDH, there is confidence in the flick at the wrist.

 

What I was getting at.
When you described which method you use for this, that, etc. Then you backed up your words with the result in osu. But with this DPI and also with FHD, it is not difficult to do "Jump". The movement of the cursor is sensitive. But also do not miss that "Jump", even if they are fast, it is a basic pattern, every beginner, including me(once was) quickly learn to pass the patterns of "Jump". 
From this it follows: That there is no correlation between 0% and "Jump" in osu.

I also gave an example above about collecting data from "pro-players". 
If a person plays CS:GO and constantly changes the sensitivity, because he does not succeed, and his idols show the result, he copies-copies and so on in a circle. In a conversation with him, I can use this calculator, as well as players "s1mple" "NiKo" "m0NESY" as pressure on his beliefs. s1mple is MDV100%, NiKo is MDH200%, m0NESY is MDH100% and they are all 4:3.
And there are many such examples to be made. 
For example: I have yet to see a single pro player with MDV(H)0% and that means...
I think you get the manipulation.

That's it.

https://www.mouse-sensitivity.com/?share=71a91e57d89bfb358bf1968a732fd991

https://www.mouse-sensitivity.com/?share=d7829230856694875cb4be669aa31a44

https://www.mouse-sensitivity.com/?share=8d35609e8b50059b6247044c2ec64335

Edited June 6, 2023 by Vaccaria

[Vaccaria]

 

On 25/05/2023 at 21:04, Vaccaria said:

It's been a while, maybe even a lot of time. At some point have to finish what started...

 

 

If collect the data of sensitivity settings from pro-players of any game, then get to form a groups called "the method to which this player approached" Which means 100%MDH, 100%MDV, 200%MDH, etc. 
Each method works, but I need a method that gives maximum efficiency from Osu to any 3D game. Exactly Osu, not Windows. 
The movements in Windows and Osu are different is the thesis.

I have tried all methods. I collect data, analyze, not have fun with friends or alone in games, my goal is to study.
Briefly about how I imagine the Jedi V method works.
This method was created for maximum cursor accuracy, going to 3D gives the same accuracy around the crosshair, but in Osu the patterns are not pixel-by-pixel accuracy, which is the pointer control in Windows. In Windows I use micro-correction to hit the X, etc anyway, and I do that with my fingers, but when I go into 3D, the same movements to shoot have to be used, and that is given by a titanic effort, all control goes to the fingers, and it doesn't matter what DPI you use, 200,400,800, etc. You use micro corrections at any DPI. But I can't go in from the other side, as I can't physically take the mouse in my palm, claw or whatever. Which means I only base my grip on a finger grip that involves my forearm and shoulder(600DPI).
Several of my mates use this method(because I gave it to them, LOL) they are satisfied, but not me for myself.

Conclusion: Works great, but not for Osu.

 

The other methods will not take apart, because they correlate the points on the edges of the monitor, everything is explained in the technical section of the forums.

 

What I arrived at using this site and the excel calculation tools that MacSquirrel_Jedi created.

1) Using MDH 200% for Hipfire.
https://www.mouse-sensitivity.com/?share=dfdd6a7f86c7e3beec1a24fe85cf2790
2) Use MDH 60% from Hipfire to ADS, Scope.
https://www.mouse-sensitivity.com/?share=6cfc6b711e19e9f183bddf02cca0cb06

 

 

Why 200%? - We need distance, not pixel accuracy. The distance here is in the form of centimeters.

Why 60%? - In osu there are a lot of horizontal movements that we do not pay attention to, because we do it with the wrist, in the game too the crosshair moves with the wrist and fingers, but if we take 100%, the emphasis is entirely on the wrist, but in osu works and the forearm and shoulder, at what values will not notice the difference in the transition between the shoulder, forearm, wrist, fingers in osu, and then also in 3D? The most accurate averaged points on the horizon are 60%. But accuracy is not enough, because you can also be accurate at 0%. And this is where you have to describe the so-called "feel". If you open two applications and switch between them, there will always be a feeling of slowness or speed of the pointer in osu, 3D. What I mean by that is a change in the use of the hand, if you control the wrist and fingers in osu and if you control the forearm and shoulder in 3D, you immediately sense a change in the pointer (crosshair). From this follows the so-called "confidence" in the movements of the hand and the result on the screen. In Osu we can track (this is the passage of the distance without jerks) and jerks from side to side (on confidence). The same thing needs to be repeated in 3D, but how?
We have a target, it moves from side to side, our crosshair doesn't move(no tracking) and here the target moves 50% of the screen from the crosshair, and here 0% fails, the wrist is not enough and there is no confidence in the action. If you use 100%MDH, there is confidence in the flick at the wrist.

This is a feature that needs to be disassembled.
I disassembled and got 60% MDH.

I am also aware that some pro players use -60% for Ashe and 60% on Widow. As I wrote above, this is how they represent the movement of the hand and the result on the screen. All methods work, but not all methods work effectively with Osu.
 

I can only guarantee operability between Osu and the 3D.

 

End.

Since I test in games where there is no X'Y separation, I did not pay proper attention to Y. With the horizontal (X) I made a decision. - 200%MDH, it's time for Y - 200%MDV.

In osu I use the same X'Y. When I enter the game, I set the multiplier for Y in RawAccel. In Kovaak can set multiplier for Y, but in Kovaak there is no manipulation of the 2D interface, like in the game Rust, so this is the first problem when using RawAccel or software in the mouse.

If use the 0%MDV(H) method from 2D, there is no difference in X'Y. And if use percent in any MDV(H) method, there is a difference in X'Y.

I've always run into a lack of "Y" because of my fingers, but I always grabbed for X and couldn't switch to Y. With 200%MDH - X, 200%MDV - Y, vertical, diagonal tracking became more accurate, and most importantly, fingers began to actively help, they used to go the distance quickly, and in 3D it was not enough for adjustments, so the shoulder was connected.

Different X'Y can be used with the method of Jedi V and 60%MDH (it is slightly more accurate than Jedi H, but also Jedi H fits) Also with 100%MDH and 100%MDV. 
I'm leaning towards the 200%MDH - X; 200%MDV - V method. 

[Vaccaria]

Different X'Y will cause the sensor to rotate in relation to the grip. The mouse forms the grip, if you change the sensor rotation through the software, the grip can also change, my fourth finger has taken a position further from the sensor, before it tried to grip so that in osu there was at least some acceptable horizon.
I came to the rotate because I was testing different X'Y, in which some phenomena became immediately noticeable.

I started the movements from the center to the left.
All movements were done with eyes closed. The movements should be similar to Jump's, but with stops at the edges. Muscles should tense at the beginning and relax at the end, i.e. you could say "flick with LMB holding" repeat the motion cycle from side to side about 8-12 lines. 
 

When I go into the game, I put Y and the movement on the horizon is now less like a sine wave.

 

[Vaccaria]

Some remarks for "sensor rotation"

I was adjusting the horizon from 1 to 1(X'Y) . When setting Y, the horizon will shift more significantly, so need to change approach to tuning.
1) Adjust the horizon with Y already set.
2) Make side-to-side movements with wrist in a relaxed state, without any horizon projections in head.

I experiment a lot, when I turn the sensor around my grip changes, i.e. I am not limited to 0 or 5 in the turn around, the main thing is to gather as much information as possible.  Today I have -2, tomorrow it will be -2.5, the day after tomorrow 0. The final decision on the closest value will be made after determining the framework of efficiency - and +. Further interaction with the obtained close number. In the previous screenshots the value is -2.4, the grip changed the value became -2. 

 

 

 

 

[MacSquirrel_Jedi]

On 7/9/2023 at 9:30 PM, Vaccaria said:

The mouse forms the grip, if you change the sensor rotation through the software, the grip can also change

I think you really found something !  

The rotation feature looks interesting :) I played with it today and it really has a big impact on the cursor movement. Just like the "Real DPI", the rotation is individual for each mouse. Which explains why someone still feels the difference with the new mouse, even if they set the same 360 distance as with the original mouse.

If I remove the rotation of my Zowie EC2-A mouse (-2.92°). When moving the mouse vertically, the cursor moves perfectly in the vertical axis. With almost no deviation. But if I only move the mouse with my wrist from left to right. The cursor moves at an angle. If I return the rotation to the original value (0°). And again move the mouse with my wrist from left to right. The cursor moves horizontally not at an angle. Which I think is the manufacturer's intention.

When I look at Zowie EC2-A sensor test. Rotation seems to be the reason for the deviation. However, it only seems to be active for the second (+x+y) and third quadrant (-x-y). Not for first (-x+y) and fourth (+x-y). Because the mouse is for right-handed people?

The expected deviation of the monitor distance in the video is not important. As long as we are using only one mouse. More important if we move the mouse repeatedly by the same distance and the cursor travels the same monitor distance each time with minimal deviation.

[Vaccaria]

3 hours ago, MacSquirrel_Jedi said:

I think you really found something !  

The rotation feature looks interesting I played with it today and it really has a big impact on the cursor movement. Just like the "Real DPI", the rotation is individual for each mouse. Which explains why someone still feels the difference with the new mouse, even if they set the same 360 distance as with the original mouse.

If I remove the rotation of my Zowie EC2-A mouse (-2.92°). When moving the mouse vertically, the cursor moves perfectly in the vertical axis. With almost no deviation. But if I only move the mouse with my wrist from left to right. The cursor moves at an angle. If I return the rotation to the original value (0°). And again move the mouse with my wrist from left to right. The cursor moves horizontally not at an angle. Which I think is the manufacturer's intention.

When I look at Zowie EC2-A sensor test. Rotation seems to be the reason for the deviation. However, it only seems to be active for the second (+x+y) and third quadrant (-x-y). Not for first (-x+y) and fourth (+x-y). Because the mouse is for right-handed people?

The expected deviation of the monitor distance in the video is not important. As long as we are using only one mouse. More important if we move the mouse repeatedly by the same distance and the cursor travels the same monitor distance each time with minimal deviation.

Since I was doing a lot of testing, in my dream I came up with the idea to reduce the DPI to the minimum value, i.e. Viper V2 = 100. It is possible to reduce via the RawAccel multiplier. I decided through DPI. 
After that I started testing movements through different shapes(symbols etc). After getting the results, I compared them. With different mouse shape, with different palm shape(i.e. all properties are included, ex. size.) Rotating the sensor allows to correct the discrepancy between X and Y. If at "0" there is a perfect vertical line, then at X it can be curved (and the opposite effect), so need to determine the degree of importance of the horizon or vertical line for yourself (what you do, etc.). In my case, turning the sensor to -4 turned both: X'Y and there was no choice between X and Y.

I once learned that ergonomic mice physically rotate the sensor relative to the body.

 

And if we take into account how unpopular in discussions "sensor rotation" is, we can assume that people change(create) the mouse shape for mass hand, but do not take into account the location of the sensor in mass hands.

We have cyber sports for FPS games, if my hands don't fit a mouse by all properties, but another person's do, then I am at a limited development potential. I was able to come up with the sensor rotation, but here we have LAN tournaments banning any outside software, that means I've reached the limitation again. This is my observation about the competition between people in FPS games. This is just one of many.
Here's another one. Adjusting sensitivity in game, I want to control the multiplier under each FOV, but the game has a formula and it scales. So I'm limited again. Games don't separate the multiplier into X and Y, so again I'm limited.

Funny observations on how we put our own sticks in our own wheels.

 

[MacSquirrel_Jedi]

On 8/19/2023 at 10:04 PM, MacSquirrel_Jedi said:

Just like the "Real DPI", the rotation is individual for each mouse

This statement is wrong... I play with it again, and found that i made a mistake. The rotation deviation -2.92° is not caused by the mouse internally as i thought. But by the element i used for sliding the mouse in vertical direction. So I measured the rotation of the sensor relative to the shape of the mouse...  kill me! 

On 7/9/2023 at 9:30 PM, Vaccaria said:

The mouse forms the grip, if you change the sensor rotation through the software, the grip can also change

This is still valid and perfectly true  

[Vaccaria]

I got the data after comparing two Y: "1" and "custom".

With a multiplier of "custom" the vertical and diagonal tracking distance is more "comfortable" for the forearm and fingers. With a multiplier of "1" the "comfort" distance is shortened, so the forearm is more active in moving and taking the load, and the fingers are used in less area.
The more vertical and diagonal distance required, the better the performance of the "custom" multiplier will be.
At multiplier "1" the movement becomes 1:1, thus vertical and diagonal tracking becomes more labor intensive, but there is stability in the form of "flick" movement on short vertical, diagonal area, long horizontal movements at sharp angles.
When the multiplier is "custom" with "flick" movement on a larger vertical, diagonal area, long horizontal movements at less acute angles.

In other words.
The image depicts figures, dimensions are a convention and should be interprised as for clarity.
Y - custom Y
1 - lock X & Y
Yellow rectangle - area of forearm.
Green square - area of fingers.

With multiplier "1" on one green square the fingers show more stable flick, forearm the same. At two squares the forearm is connected, fingers work only at one square.
The forearm performs a more stable flick with a long movement and a sharp angle.

With the "custom" multiplier on two green squares the fingers show a more stable flick than with one square, but that doesn't mean that the difference can reach several times. It is there, it can be felt when moving, that's what I recorded.
There are difficulties when trying to make a long forearm movement with an acute angle, but these difficulties are not present if you make a more diagonal movement, i.e. with a less acute angle.

3D to Osu
With a multiplier of "1" when playing osu, the forearm is used more than the fingers.
With a multiplier of "custom" when playing osu, the fingers are used more than the forearm.
That is, with different multipliers, the forearm and fingers are used to different degrees relative to each other. If at "1" in 3D we are more active with the forearm, then in Osu will be transferred to the forearm (going the distance). And vice versa in "custom".

From here it follows that some games that use more horizontal aiming can form the habit of aiming in this way and no other way, if a person wants to try to use "custom Y", his habit will make itself known. In OW you can aim diagonally and maintain that style. But in Valorant you can't anymore. And that's where "recoil" comes in, so recoil is distance measured. Which means that if I use my fingers for vertical movement, I'm more comfortable controlling most of the recoil with my fingers, and only after I engage my forearm(shoulder).

To use "1" or "custom" is a compromise with yourself, i.e. your habits. But to know your habits, you have to try and only then compare: the old experience and the new experience.

p.s.

Because I tested rotating the sensor, I was able to gather even more data on how I hold and move the mouse. I was able to come up with a more efficient grip. I compared two mice, my last mouse and my current mouse. The shape and grip give differences in sensor rotation, but on my two mice sensor rotation is necessary, on both with sign "-". On the Razer Viper between 2 and 4, this is an approximate range, because by warming up it is possible to reduce the value, if you take an unstretched arm, the value is closer to 4.
Also tested the rotation "0" with multipliers Y: "1" and "custom". When rotating the sensor, the performance of "custom" increased dramatically. I have some reasoning as to why mine is the way it is, but I'm not ready to share yet, i.e. the reasoning is not ready.

I use 200% MDH(X) and 200% MDV(Y) at FHD/650dpi.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Vaccaria

[Vaccaria]

There was another function that came to my attention.
"Angle snapping"
Considering what I encountered and came to rotate the sensor, angle snapping gives a noticeable result in 3D along with sensor rotation. If remove the sensor rotation to 0(I have that, as 0 gives me a strong bias relative to -5), the value in angle snapping goes up. This means that the efficiency goes down.
Hence. First of all, need to determine the sensor rotation angle (ex. 5, 0, -5, etc., etc.), and after all the long tests, should move to the angle snapping. By doing this, the value of the angle binding will be less, which will increase the efficiency. This may not be useful to some people, but for me, it's a useful feature. It can also be useful in 1-2-3 degrees, i.e. small values, as a kind of helper.

I'm using 20k dpi, I need 508 dpi. That's why the "Sensitivity multiplier" is like this.

 

Raw Accel - settings.json.

3D, vertical multiplier for OW

      "Sensitivity multiplier": 0.0254,
      "Y/X sensitivity ratio (vertical sens multiplier)": 1.42486085343,
      "L/R sensitivity ratio (left sens multiplier)": 1.0,
      "U/D sensitivity ratio (up sens multiplier)": 1.0,
      "Degrees of rotation": -5.0,
      "Degrees of angle snapping": 6.0, (search process)
      "Input Speed Cap": 0.0

2D, non 3D games

      "Sensitivity multiplier": 0.0254,
      "Y/X sensitivity ratio (vertical sens multiplier)": 1.0,
      "L/R sensitivity ratio (left sens multiplier)": 1.0,
      "U/D sensitivity ratio (up sens multiplier)": 1.0,
      "Degrees of rotation": -5.0,
      "Degrees of angle snapping": 6.0, (search process)
      "Input Speed Cap": 0.0

I have the sensor turned to -5, which is pretty significant. When I increase Y, it also gives less stability, but when I add an angle snapping - I'm getting stability.

 

end

Edited September 25, 2023 by Vaccaria

[TheNoobPolice]

On 24/09/2023 at 17:38, Vaccaria said:

When I increase Y, it also gives less stability, but when I add an angle snapping - I'm getting stability.

You are going about this in an overly complex way. If you want to increase vertical sens without changes in direction and without using acceleration you would really need to use something like the Bias mode I added to Custom Curve.
In Raw Accel you can do similar but you kind of just have to "hack" it using the LUT mode and anisotropy by using an "instant" acceleration to a cap that all occurs below minimum input speed.

You could set it as follows:

LookUp Table (Sensitivity mode):
1e-17,2;
1e-16,2;

Sens Multiplier = 0.5
Y Range = 2 * desired y/x ratio - 1 = 1.84972170686 in your case

This creates the same graph as your y/x ratio version, but does not change diagonal directions (This shows what usually happens).

This method works because we create some invisible instant acceleration between sens 1 to 2 and the range function has a formula of:
(acceleratedSensitivity -1) * (rangeX + (rangeY - rangeX) * (atan(|y/x|)) / (pi/2)) + 1

or more easily understood as:

"A single sensitivity applied to both axes, that is linearly scaled to each axes configured sensitivity value by the ratio of input angle to 90 degrees"

The transition across angles would be entirely linear in Raw Accel, so an input of 45 degrees would have a sens of (1 + (desired y/x ratio -1) * (45/90)) = 1.212430426715, and an input of 22.5 degrees would have a sens of (1 + (desired y/x ratio - 1) * (22.5 / 90)) = 1.1062152133575, but there is only this one sensitivity applied to both axes components at all times so directionality is preserved - increasing vertical sens in this way does not make near horizontal motions less stable by "pitching up" your crosshair like what happens with a y/x ratio change.

Using legacy threshold-based angle-snapping is a bad idea since it is extremely flawed and simply obfuscates angles below the set threshold - which is doing nothing except reduce the fidelity of input. There could be less compromised ways to facilitate a larger / more forgiving angular window to move along an axis, but none that are available at the moment.

[Vaccaria]

6 hours ago, TheNoobPolice said:

You are going about this in an overly complex way

You are right.

6 hours ago, TheNoobPolice said:

If you want to increase vertical sens without changes in direction and without using acceleration you would really need to use something like the Bias mode I added to Custom Curve.

The new version really has all the features I need. But where I live, banks are disconnected from SWIFT. So I can't pay directly.

6 hours ago, TheNoobPolice said:

Using legacy threshold-based angle-snapping is a bad idea since it is extremely flawed and simply obfuscates angles below the set threshold - which is doing nothing except reduce the fidelity of input. There could be less compromised ways to facilitate a larger / more forgiving angular window to move along an axis, but none that are available at the moment.

Since I tried it and collected data that I tried to analyze afterwards, I understand what you wrote about.

6 hours ago, TheNoobPolice said:

This creates the same graph as your y/x ratio version, but does not change diagonal directions (This shows what usually happens).

This method works because we create some invisible instant acceleration between sens 1 to 2 and the range function has a formula of:
(acceleratedSensitivity -1) * (rangeX + (rangeY - rangeX) * (atan(|y/x|)) / (pi/2)) + 1

or more easily understood as:

"A single sensitivity applied to both axes, that is linearly scaled to each axes configured sensitivity value by the ratio of input angle to 90 degrees"

The transition across angles would be entirely linear in Raw Accel, so an input of 45 degrees would have a sens of (1 + (desired y/x ratio -1) * (45/90)) = 1.212430426715, and an input of 22.5 degrees would have a sens of (1 + (desired y/x ratio - 1) * (22.5 / 90)) = 1.1062152133575, but there is only this one sensitivity applied to both axes components at all times so directionality is preserved - increasing vertical sens in this way does not make near horizontal motions less stable by "pitching up" your crosshair like what happens with a y/x ratio change.

That's awesome.

Data input has become very consecutive. Something like this was consistent with angle-snapping "6", but the quality is much different. Also with angle-snapping I felt the square on the monitor, which was able to show effectiveness in osu, only in osu(2D)...
In 3D the square helped with stability, it helped with input consistency, but that's something I was able to notice right away as the process of comparing between A and B was underway.

But when I compared Anisotropy and Angle-snapping, all my reasoning about why I feel that consistency (crosshair stability) at certain angles immediately became clear in the form of math.

 

Thank you @TheNoobPolice

Edited September 26, 2023 by Vaccaria

[Aim DASH]

On 9/24/2023 at 11:38 AM, Vaccaria said:

Do you still use 90 fov or did you go to 103? I understand the conversion method, but I don't know if the FOV fully contributes to it. Would you mind setting it straight for me?

 

[Vaccaria]

@Aim DASH 

1) I don't play games.
2) If talking about OW, I use 103. If talking about WoT, I use 100. WoT was my main game, and OW has a feature set for testing. But I don't play games anymore:)
3) I will explain the impact through numbers in a calculator. If I start explaining about how FoV affects visual response, since the eyes are receptors, I might fail. And that's just the word FoV, but there are objects in the game, the distance of your eyes to the monitor screen, the size of the monitor screen, your ergonomics in your chair, your visual acuity, glasses with or without diopter and etc. etc. etc.

First step:
FoV affects the 360° Distance for hipfire(different multiplier) and the Pixel ratio:

103:

90:

Second step:
With different FoV for hipfire(different multiplier) there will be different multiplier values when scaling for ADS, Scope. And this will already affect the shooting. Yes, will adapt to it, there will be no difference for brain. But these methods affect the principle of shooting differently.

103:

90:

There is no right or wrong here. You can try all of these, record the results, analyze the results and decide which FoV is the most effective for you. 
Another condition is that not all games have a high FoV, not all games can change FoV. So you don't need to fixate on specific values.

I'm going to take it out of context a little bit and steal the words:

///

If there are any more questions, ask.

///

[Aim DASH]

12 minutes ago, Vaccaria said:

@Aim DASH 

1) I don't play games.
2) If talking about OW, I use 103. If talking about WoT, I use 100. WoT was my main game, and OW has a feature set for testing. But I don't play games anymore:)
3) I will explain the impact through numbers in a calculator. If I start explaining about how FoV affects visual response, since the eyes are receptors, I might fail. And that's just the word FoV, but there are objects in the game, the distance of your eyes to the monitor screen, the size of the monitor screen, your ergonomics in your chair, your visual acuity, glasses with or without diopter and etc. etc. etc.

First step:
FoV affects the 360° Distance for hipfire(different multiplier) and the Pixel ratio:

103:

90:

Second step:
With different FoV for hipfire(different multiplier) there will be different multiplier values when scaling for ADS, Scope. And this will already affect the shooting. Yes, will adapt to it, there will be no difference for brain. But these methods affect the principle of shooting differently.

103:

90:

There is no right or wrong here. You can try all of these, record the results, analyze the results and decide which FoV is the most effective for you. 
Another condition is that not all games have a high FoV, not all games can change FoV. So you don't need to fixate on specific values.

I'm going to take it out of context a little bit and steal the words:

///

If there are any more questions, ask.

///

1. this cleared a lot of misconceptions i was having thank you very much .

[Vaccaria]

Osu vs McOsu and the impact on conversion from Hipfire to ADS, Scope.

At the very beginning of the study, I used native osu. McOsu I used as 3D, with a native square osu.
Since I used native osu, the area of note appearance has a square. By moving the pointer over the square area each time, I arrived at the method: MDH 60% from Hipfire to ADS, Scope.
When I moved to McOsu to test the full screen format instead of the square, I continued to use MDH 60%.
I didn't even have any doubt that MDH 60% was the most effective.
Not long ago I came across questions, topics, discussions about 100%MDH, and it prompted me to double-check this method, because past experience is past experience, because as soon as you think, there is, found - you start to die.

///

When I started running tests with MDH 100%, my confidence was shaken, I immediately realized what was wrong. Square is MDH 60%, but when fullscreen it is MDH 100%.

From here we get the following data:
1) Native osu is 0-60%, maybe someone will have 100%, but according to my data 60% is most effective.
2) Fullscreen McOsu is 60-100%, yes, can use 60%, 90%, 98.434389% or any other value to address any shortcomings you may personally have. But for the sake of understanding, let's take 100% as a base.

How to make full screen mode:
Need 3 commands, I don't know how these values will display on other monitors, my values are as follows:

osu_playfield_stretch_x 0.5
osu_playfield_border_bottom_percent 0.112
osu_playfield_border_top_percent 0.112

1) Manually enter one command each time you run McOsu. The key combination to open cmd is "Shift+F1"
or 
2) Enter these lines in the file "osu.cfg" in the path "*\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\McOsu\cfg"

///

The images show the value of the size of the circles(cs 0). The higher the cs, the more the area is narrowed. This is the mechanics of cs, there is no way around it. Therefore, at the usual values of 4-6 cs, the area will be narrowed.

Comparison of area:

Native area in osu(cs 0)

Fullscreen(cs 0)

What does cs 4 look like with fullscreen.

Or

Here are more fullscreen for specific cs values:

cs 2
osu_playfield_stretch_x 0.471
osu_playfield_border_bottom_percent 0.097
osu_playfield_border_top_percent 0.097

cs 4
osu_playfield_stretch_x 0.446
osu_playfield_border_bottom_percent 0.081
osu_playfield_border_top_percent 0.081

cs 5
osu_playfield_stretch_x 0.432
osu_playfield_border_bottom_percent 0.073
osu_playfield_border_top_percent 0.073

cs 6
osu_playfield_stretch_x 0.418
osu_playfield_border_bottom_percent 0.064
osu_playfield_border_top_percent 0.063

I check the values in photoshop to make sure the lines are the same from the edges.

///

Well, another confirmation that the same method shows different effectiveness when the environment changes. This means that you should choose methods by studying your own environment of training, playing games or whatever else you do with your PC:)

Let's take The Finals game as an example, the calculator shows limit of MDV 100%, i.e. in the game cannot be set higher than this value. The environment limits by imposing restrictions.

Playing native osu, you will be changed by the osu environment as there is no way to change the area.

///

That's all for now.

 

Tag solution
On topic, this is:

Click

Click together with Click

Click

other posts additional information

Edited November 9, 2023 by Vaccaria
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