BEST Mouse? BEST Mouse Pad? NEW! RAZER VIPER

[Drimzi]

48 minutes ago, iBerggman said:

Not for palm grip though? I have ~20cm hands and can't think of many mice I can actually palm and have most of my palm in contact with the mouse. I've tried for example the EC1-A, G403 and Deathadder and they all force me to use somewhat of a fingertip grip with my palm hovering from roughly around the knuckles. If I were to put my palm to the rear of the shell I'd have quite a bit of my fingertips hanging over the edge. 

Lol exactly the same as me. I got roughly 20x10 hands.

[Bryjoe]

1 hour ago, MuntyYy said:

Is that a hindrance for you ? I assume not, as you always had big hands. Can't think of someone playing decent in a finger tip grip tho. You can probably claw grip most mice, which in my opinion is a far more superior method than finger tipping. But then there are guys with 18+ cm hands, playing just as good with 10 cm mice. So I guess there are more factors to play in, than just your hand length.

Hmm, is there something wrong with using a fingertip grip? That is what I have to use as a palm makes my fingers go over the mouse as he said above. Claw seems unnatural to me, what are the benefits of using claw versus fingertip?

 

[MuntyYy]

1 minute ago, Bryjoe said:

Hmm, is there something wrong with using a fingertip grip? That is what I have to use as a palm makes my fingers go over the mouse as he said above. Claw seems unnatural to me, what are the benefits of using claw versus fingertip?

 

I won't say is something wrong if you use fingertip grip. But based on various charts and preferred grips, the fingertip one rates the lowest. If you want me to describe it, I can say the following:
Palm grip: The most control over small adjustments, decent flicking abilities it gets tiring pretty fast.
Claw grip: Great flicking abilities, decent micro adjustment + you won't get sore as quick as using a palm grip.
Finger tip: Decent at flicking, poor at micro adjustment ( the worst out of all ), however you can play for as long as you want without any discomfort.

That's what I think and concluded. But keep in mind that your fingers placement also plays a factor in it ( I'm picking the mouse with just 2 fingers, weight is probably the most important thing for me, followed by shape and buttons/ sensor ) and your sensitivity as well.

[MuntyYy]

I could add as well, that based on how low/ high of a sensitivity you play on, you have advantages and disadvantages as well if you choose to play with a certain grip style.

Palm grip - over 50cm/ 360 
Claw grip - bellow 50cm but not lower than 30
Finger tip - bellow ~30. 

Just what I believe, it can be the exact opposite for what I know. But I can tell you that I've played with over 104cm/ 360 and with as low as 25, so I have a pretty good "guess" if I can say so.

[iBerggman]

24 minutes ago, MuntyYy said:

Is that a hindrance for you ? I assume not, as you always had big hands. Can't think of someone playing decent in a finger tip grip tho. You can probably claw grip most mice, which in my opinion is a far more superior method than finger tipping. But then there are guys with 18+ cm hands, playing just as good with 10 cm mice. So I guess there are more factors to play in, than just your hand length.

Yes and no, I've learned to play with sort of a hybrid grip where I have like a third of my palm resting on the rear and then curl my fingers slightly so they just reach the edge of the buttons/right side corner. It is fairly comfortable with most mice but since I can't keep my fingers straight I tend to start trying to adjust my grip after a while and the longer I play the more I transition into a fingertip grip and then suddenly the rear of the mouse isn't supported by my palm anymore which allows it to move and that it turn makes the cursor do a little arc down to the sides. This isn't usually a problem but I often have all-day pubg duo sessions with a friend and that's where this really starts to show. 

I've found the most natural way for me to grip is to lay my hand palm first on the back of the mouse and lightly press in with the base of my thumb and right side of the hand to sort of "lock in" the grip. Then I take my ring finger and thumb and use those as my main grip on the mouse as well as contact points to pivot to the sides. The other fingers just lay straight, this is where a high front right edge (like the G403) is important because it has to fit both my ring and pinky finger next to each other. The rear is always in contact with my palm to provide a stable base(like the buttstock of a gun) for the pivoting motion, otherwise I'll get the arcing I mentioned earlier. This is why I think I need a mouse with at least 130mm of length, the hump should pretty far back as well because I tend to do the "lock in" grip automatically so if the hump doesn't fill out the palm enough I tend to tense up my palm enough that it makes contact with the shell and that's pretty rough on the wrist area. Fingertip is a real wrist-killer for me because of this, especially with smaller mice I eventually find myself gripping so much that my whole palm and wrist is all tensed up.

No, I haven't spent way too much time analyzing the way I like to grip my mouse 

[MuntyYy]

8 hours ago, iBerggman said:

I've learned to play with sort of a hybrid grip where I have like a third of my palm resting on the rear and then curl my fingers slightly so they just reach the edge of the buttons/right side corner.

That's what I use as well, even though my hand is much smaller than yours. Its something between palm grip and claw grip.

8 hours ago, iBerggman said:

I tend to start trying to adjust my grip after a while and the longer I play the more I transition into a fingertip grip and then suddenly the rear of the mouse isn't supported by my palm anymore

I know exactly what you're talking about, as I also have the same ( more or less ) tendency when I play causally, more relaxed.

8 hours ago, iBerggman said:

This is why I think I need a mouse with at least 130mm of length, the hump should pretty far back as well

Have you tried playing with a g402 ? 136 mm long, I need atleast ~2 more cm to palm it properly. It has great mouse feet ( and buttons as well ! ) thus gliding well on most pads, decent cable and an "improved sensor". Its shape will easily fit your ring finger and pinky. g502 could work as well.

8 hours ago, iBerggman said:

Fingertip is a real wrist-killer for me because of this, especially with smaller mice I eventually find myself gripping so much that my whole palm and wrist is all tensed up.

I have a question in regards to this statement. Do you need more than 40cm to do a 360 ? 

Edited August 7, 2018 by MuntyYy

[DNAMTE]

I've tried to play with fingertip grip, i always end up trying to palm after a while. its the most comfortable grip realistically. I think most people including myself use a sort of hybrid claw/ palm grip.

This is why i like the FK1+, you can hold it more naturally, something that you can't do with the FK1 or FK2, they are especially too narrow. For reference my hand is avg sized, about 19~ and 9.5 on the inside of my palm, i noticed RJN measures across his thumb as well, not sure why.

Just to touch back on the FK series, the clicks are fine, certainly nothing to dissuade you from getting it. The sensor tracks perfectly fine, has never let me down.... I have 13 mice to choose from, if i thought the sensor or clicks were detrimental i would pick another without a doubt, but the FK is still on my mousepad.

 

Sensitivity wise, i really like 40 - 50cm hip fire... although in games like COD i end up playing with something much lower like 30cm. I match the ADS sensitivity rather than the hipfire. More important IMO.

[MuntyYy]

2 hours ago, DNAMTE said:

i like the FK1+, you can hold it more naturally, something that you can't do with the FK1 or FK2, they are especially too narrow

Right, fk1 and 2 are infamous for their clicks due to the narrow, small sized case. FK1+ on the other hand, most surely won't work for me. Zy's measurements are in between mine and yours, but he rather prefers playin with fk2/ CM MasterMouse S ( an even smaller mouse ). Now the question is why ? How do we dictate which mouse is suited for us or not ?

[Bryjoe]

The main reason I prefer the g403 is because of the finish on it, it's so great for sweaty hands. It's almost like a "matte" plastic, but I honestly don't know exactly. It feels more premium than traditional plastic as well. It also has the best left and right click of any mouse i've used, but not the best scroll wheel. The FK is actually RJN's favorite, or it was before finalmouse came out with their ultralight phantom. Again, I think it comes down to lighter mice just being easier to use, combine a light mouse with a safe shape (no crazy contours) and you have a winning combination.

Examining my grip last night, it definitely is a hybrid. I use a decently low sens, 41.6cm/360, so I have to palm it to make flicks, but my fingers are too long to do a proper palm grip. I am tempted to try the FK at this point, but really if I am going to get another no frills mouse,  I think I would go with the finalmouse. That's another con(or benefit) is that zowie and finalmouse have no software. I have one of the mouse buttons on my g403 bound to ALT and it's invaluable as an extra keybind in MMOs.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Bryjoe

[MuntyYy]

Interesting I didn't knew that Zy's favorite mouse is now the finalmouse. A light mouse alone, though, won't suffice it. The cable needs to be as light as well. Let's hope we will have more mice to pick from in the near future.

[Bryjoe]

9 minutes ago, MuntyYy said:

Interesting I didn't knew that Zy's favorite mouse is now the finalmouse. A light mouse alone, though, won't suffice it. The cable needs to be as light as well. Let's hope we will have more mice to pick from in the near future.

The ultra light phantom is exactly that. It's the finalmouse ultralight with a cable that, as Zy describes it, feels wireless. Pretty bold claim. A mouse bungee pretty much eliminates any issues with a cable, so for me it's kinda irrelevant. 

It's worth noting you can't get the phantom anywhere right now, except for like $250+ on ebay. Even the normal ultralights are sold out. I would have to try it for myself, but I think it might be a revolutionary mouse design, if that can even be said about a mouse, lol.

Edited August 7, 2018 by Bryjoe

[DNAMTE]

1 hour ago, Bryjoe said:

The ultra light phantom is exactly that. It's the finalmouse ultralight with a cable that, as Zy describes it, feels wireless. Pretty bold claim. A mouse bungee pretty much eliminates any issues with a cable, so for me it's kinda irrelevant. 

It's worth noting you can't get the phantom anywhere right now, except for like $250+ on ebay. Even the normal ultralights are sold out. I would have to try it for myself, but I think it might be a revolutionary mouse design, if that can even be said about a mouse, lol.

I believe it replaced the g403 on his general list, its not his personal favourite. Its his 'i guess this is number 1 but i dont like it as much as others might'. 

He lists the fk2 as his personal fav. 

 

http://www.rocketjumpninja.com/find-a-mouse/

Edited August 7, 2018 by DNAMTE

[MuntyYy]

Thought that as well.

[Bryjoe]

True, he basically said in the review he can't use it because it's too large.  But it would be his favorite if they had a smaller version. Yeah I actually just measured my hands again, lol, and I have very wide hands at basically 12cm. I think the FK1+ might be the perfect mouse for me. I want to try both it and the finalmouse, but they are $60+ a piece, so.

[DNAMTE]

Now it's #1.

Replaced the crappy grips with some leather from old welding gloves. feels much better!

[MuntyYy]

Looks good. Won't change the fact that its too big for me. Will the mod work for g pro you reckon ? Or its sides are too small in height.

[iBerggman]

I'd guess no (or not as well as on the Rival 310) because the G Pro doesn't have the indents for the rubber side grips like Rival has so you'd probably get some noticeable edges. If you're looking for more grip on the G Pro I'd look into a little thinner materials so you don't feel the edges underneath your fingers, something like this should work.

There's also the more sandpaper type material, like the Artisan Teppeki if you prefer a rougher surface:

 

 

[MuntyYy]

4 hours ago, iBerggman said:

If you're looking for more grip on the G Pro I'd look into a little thinner materials so you don't feel the edges underneath your fingers, something like this should work.

That looks sick. How are  the gpro's buttons ? feet and sensor implementation ?

[iBerggman]

4 minutes ago, MuntyYy said:

That looks sick. How are  the gpro's buttons ? feet and sensor implementation ?

I don't know, I don't own a G Pro I just found that picture from someone over at Overclock.net ^^

But from what I've heard some people really like the clicks on it although I've also seen others say they're too light so idk. As far as sensor implementation goes however, I don't think you really can go wrong with logitech, seems they have that area well under control. No idea about the mousefeet but if they're anything like the G403 you might want to order some hyperglides at the same time.

[Derpturtle]

I recently broke out all my mice and gave them another whirl.

My grip is decided by the mouse I use. Some mice lends themselves more towards certain grip styles.
Stable Div1 in Battlefield and 3800SR in Overwatch.

G403, Deathadder Elite, EC1-a all favor palm grip in my opinion and are the "Comfiest" so to speak. I also feel like palm gives me really good control for tracking but flicking becomes harder and tiring, and if you're playing something like Quake or Overwatch where you have to do 360 turns every fucking second it gets extremely tiring to play this way. I find after 2 hours my performance tanks because my arm is just too tired jumping around like a mad man. Unfortunately, Palm does not work very will for high sensitivity in my testing. Anything below 30cm/360 becomes a nightmare because you have to flex your whole arm to make those small adjustments.

 

G502, SS310 - These offer a different strange hybrid grip, it's like palm and fingertip in one where my hand is clearly over the mouse but the slim grip width allows for finger movement independent of your wrist, this lets me do large swipes as well as tiny ones. I would argue that this is ideal as you get a little bit of two worlds here.
It differs from Claw in that I don't need to claw my fingers. They are straight unless I'm pulling the mouse back.
This grip works really well for high sensitivity and I can play well up to 24cm/360.

The material on the 310 seriously lets it down though. And there is a weird thing with mine where the left click sometimes releases even if I'm holding it down. This can lead to frustrations. The 310 just doesn't feel great after a while of using it, its cheap and creaky almost. The G502 would be my favorite if it wasn't so damn heavy. Literally the only downfall of this mouse, imo, is the weight. The lowest you can get it is 120grams with everything taken off it, I'm considering getting rid of the cable braid to see if that will do anything.

 

I would like to add that lower weight isn't necessarily better for you. Just because the final mouse weighs nothing doesn't automatically make it the best.
The lighter a mouse is the less control you have over it as any micro adjustment becomes effortless. If you go to the gym for example, the final mouse is terrible, I have to play at such a low sensitivity to get rid of "jitter" that I don't want to play anymore, I'm so focused on my gigantic sweeps across the desk to move that I can't focus on aiming. And any higher and I have to flex insane amounts to keep it steady.
 

G Pro, Final Mouse - I don't like these because they are simply too small and light weight. These are finger tip grip mice in my opinion and don't lend themselves to anything else.
(Claw if you have small hands, below 19cm)
The buttons are so light that just resting my fingers result in holding the buttons down which leads to a ton of accidental clicks. I can see the appeal in the light weight since I'm basically just moving my arm unencumbered but I find that I have to lower my sensitivity to make the arm sweeps accurate but then I mess up the micro adjustments with my fingers and wrist.
If I make the sens higher I have great flicks but my tracking is atrocious. I've had the hardest time getting used to these mice in particular. But if you prefer tiny, weightless mice, I'd recommend these. You can also get rid of the braid on the G Pro, the cable actually does tug a bit because of its weight.

As for mouse pads in order:
Steelseries QCK+ - Best speed and control
Artisan Hayate - Great speed, lacking in control by a tiny amount
Razer Goliathus speed - Fantastic speed and control but my pad is too small and the new big ones are a different material.
Zowie G-sr - Feels like dragging your mouse on sandpaper. Would have red drag marks on my arm after a game.
 

Final notes: I fucking wish I could get my Logitech g400, G5 or MX518 back with a new sensor. I've never had better mice than those.

Edited August 10, 2018 by Derpturtle

[DNAMTE]

2 hours ago, Derpturtle said:

I recently broke out all my mice and gave them another whirl.

My grip is decided by the mouse I use. Some mice lends themselves more towards certain grip styles.
Stable Div1 in Battlefield and 3800SR in Overwatch.

G403, Deathadder Elite, EC1-a all favor palm grip in my opinion and are the "Comfiest" so to speak. I also feel like palm gives me really good control for tracking but flicking becomes harder and tiring, and if you're playing something like Quake or Overwatch where you have to do 360 turns every fucking second it gets extremely tiring to play this way. I find after 2 hours my performance tanks because my arm is just too tired jumping around like a mad man. Unfortunately, Palm does not work very will for high sensitivity in my testing. Anything below 30cm/360 becomes a nightmare because you have to flex your whole arm to make those small adjustments.

 

G502, SS310 - These offer a different strange hybrid grip, it's like palm and fingertip in one where my hand is clearly over the mouse but the slim grip width allows for finger movement independent of your wrist, this lets me do large swipes as well as tiny ones. I would argue that this is ideal as you get a little bit of two worlds here.
It differs from Claw in that I don't need to claw my fingers. They are straight unless I'm pulling the mouse back.
This grip works really well for high sensitivity and I can play well up to 24cm/360.

The material on the 310 seriously lets it down though. And there is a weird thing with mine where the left click sometimes releases even if I'm holding it down. This can lead to frustrations. The 310 just doesn't feel great after a while of using it, its cheap and creaky almost. The G502 would be my favorite if it wasn't so damn heavy. Literally the only downfall of this mouse, imo, is the weight. The lowest you can get it is 120grams with everything taken off it, I'm considering getting rid of the cable braid to see if that will do anything.

 

I would like to add that lower weight isn't necessarily better for you. Just because the final mouse weighs nothing doesn't automatically make it the best.
The lighter a mouse is the less control you have over it as any micro adjustment becomes effortless. If you go to the gym for example, the final mouse is terrible, I have to play at such a low sensitivity to get rid of "jitter" that I don't want to play anymore, I'm so focused on my gigantic sweeps across the desk to move that I can't focus on aiming. And any higher and I have to flex insane amounts to keep it steady.
 

G Pro, Final Mouse - I don't like these because they are simply too small and light weight. These are finger tip grip mice in my opinion and don't lend themselves to anything else.
(Claw if you have small hands, below 19cm)
The buttons are so light that just resting my fingers result in holding the buttons down which leads to a ton of accidental clicks. I can see the appeal in the light weight since I'm basically just moving my arm unencumbered but I find that I have to lower my sensitivity to make the arm sweeps accurate but then I mess up the micro adjustments with my fingers and wrist.
If I make the sens higher I have great flicks but my tracking is atrocious. I've had the hardest time getting used to these mice in particular. But if you prefer tiny, weightless mice, I'd recommend these. You can also get rid of the braid on the G Pro, the cable actually does tug a bit because of its weight.

As for mouse pads in order:
Steelseries QCK+ - Best speed and control
Artisan Hayate - Great speed, lacking in control by a tiny amount
Razer Goliathus speed - Fantastic speed and control but my pad is too small and the new big ones are a different material.
Zowie G-sr - Feels like dragging your mouse on sandpaper. Would have red drag marks on my arm after a game.
 

Final notes: I fucking wish I could get my Logitech g400, G5 or MX518 back with a new sensor. I've never had better mice than those.

Just a  note on the Zowie GSR. I used to hate this mousepad, the worst of the lot. When you feel the surface with your hand, it's very smooth right, especially in comparison to the steelseries for example which is coarse.
The issue with the GSR is that it has a LOT of initial friction on your mouse feet, the glide is good but starting the glide is bad, small movements can feel difficult.

Well the Zowie GSR has been my fav for some time now, the longest time. You gotta get your hands on some Mr Sheen, spray a little on a cloth and rub it in lightly. It makes any mousepad feel smoother, but it makes the GSR pretty much perfect. The initial friction is gone leaving a pad that is smooth for your hand to glide over and smooth for your mouse to glide over, also one of the few that doesn't seem to react badly with humidity.

[DNAMTE]

i upgraded my upgrade. The leather was actually pretty good but this tennis grip tape takes it to the next level.

Edited August 11, 2018 by DNAMTE

[potato psoas]

3 hours ago, DNAMTE said:

i upgraded my upgrade. The leather was actually pretty good but this tennis grip tape takes it to the next level.

I had a deathadder and the rubber grips fell off and started getting sticky. I ended up using duct tape to replace the grips. But personally I hate mice that angle inwards at the sides from the top. Your hand will slip no matter what grip you have. Would rather have a straight edge or even have it angle outwards like my CORSAIR M65.

[DNAMTE]

3 minutes ago, potato psoas said:

I had a deathadder and the rubber grips fell off and started getting sticky. I ended up using duct tape to replace the grips. But personally I hate mice that angle inwards at the sides from the top. Your hand will slip no matter what grip you have. Would rather have a straight edge or even have it angle outwards like my CORSAIR M65.

the rival 310 has really great geometry. all the right angles, just the grips that it comes with are a silicone which get really bad once ur hands get any moisture

[DNAMTE]

Got the Logitech G PRO Wireless to try out.

Thoughts so far after a few days, good shape and size (feels a little small but i'm used to the rival 310 shape right now). The feet seem very similar to the Steel Series Rival 600, they are very loud and have little initial friction, decent glide. For comparison the Rival 310 has a much smoother, almost silent glide, but more initial friction. Overall I feel the feet on this are better.

In my experience, as with mouse pads.... The more consistent you can make 'glide' feel, the better...  If you need to lower the overall 'slickness' of the glide to obtain less starting friction I'm all for it. It's like i explained with mouse pads, i feel manufactures could really spend time to look in to improving them, the slickest, smoothest surface does not necessarily give the smoothest, most consistent glide.

The buttons, scroll wheel and clicks, overall quality as usual from Logitech, feel great. This is also the lightest mouse i own, coupled with wireless... feels amazing.

Overall i'm really liking this mouse, i don't see any real negatives at this point, Great job Logitech!

 

PS: The side buttons are in a better location for me as well, my thumb sits right in between the buttons how i hold this mouse. The steel series 310 felt like the buttons are slightly too far forward for where i grip it (Steel series 600 was actually perfect).

Also as an update on the Rival 600, i had to return it as the Lift of distance was changing randomly, to the point i would lose tracking during a game. Also the shape was not perfect, i did not have a great solid hold with the mouse, mainly because of the right side and the lack of geometry.

Edited September 22, 2018 by DNAMTE